EuropaOwners

Europa-List :: RE: Europa-List: Fuel system - More Questions!

Anonymous — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 04:14:41 +0300

Author: Theschultzfamily at co...
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel system - More Questions!
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:14 pm (GMT -5)

Can anyone verify these “non” differential fuel pressure readings?
MP = 14.3 Fuel = 4.6
MP – 14 Fuel = 4.9
MP = 20 Fuel = 4.9
MP = 25 Fuel = 6.4
MP = 30 Fuel = 9.1
MP = 39.5 Fuel = 11.6

Engine seems to be running fine with these but earlier in the process the engine was once again surging. Everyone that hears the surging thinks I have a fuel problem????

Monitoring and testing continues…..

Rich Schultz
N262AE
[quote][b]

Europa-List :: Europa-List: FW: Batteries and fuel tank capacity

Anonymous — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 20:35:54 +0300

Author: DCorbett at corbettfar...
Subject: Europa-List: FW: Batteries and fuel tank capacity
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:35 pm (GMT -5)

My Europa has a Hawker Energy SBS 30 battery mounted behind the baggage bay. This battery has been in service for one year in the workshop, and 8.5 years flying, without any problem.

Has anyone ever had to replace a Hawker SBS 30 because of lack of performance?

I noticed that Nigel Charles posted a message about fuel tank capacity. I have just replaced the Avalec tank sender in “AM”, and during the re-calibration process I put 68 litres in, on top of the unusable fuel. When I put the aircraft back from level flight position to the three point position, I could see through the tank top surface, beside the tank sender plate, that the tank was not full, and so put in three further litres, making 71 litres and the unusable fuel. The tank was still not full at that point, but I had no more fuel with me at that stage. (To clarify, “AM” is a monowheel).

David
G-BZAM 560 hrs
[quote][b]

Europa-List :: RE: Europa-List: Fuel system - More Questions!

rparigoris — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 10:36:34 +0300

Author: rparigoris
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel system - More Questions!
Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:36 am (GMT -5)

Hi RichAs far as your intermittent rough running, a few ideas:When motor begins to run rough, what happens if you turn off both pumps? Does that help? If so you may be above 5 lbs differential or your needle valve and seat may be leaking.Is rubber holding your carbs the Kevlar reinforced and no cracks or leaks?Are you absoluetly certain that you are getting butterflys opening the same? Intermittent throttle cable kinking?Are both your choke cables allowing full closure?Did you check if carb diaphragms have hole or rip and that slides are free to move up and down?Is your fuel tank vent clear?Are you certain plumbing that allows airbox pressure to pressurize carb float bowls are in order?Ron Parigoris [quote][b]

Europa-List :: RE: Europa-List: C-FOGJ

josok — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 10:26:39 +0300

Author: josok
Subject: RE: Europa-List: C-FOGJ
Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:26 am (GMT -5)

loboloda at execulink.com reported his first flight here, with some details.
Use the search function loaded with a220.

To close for comfort, the wreckage looks soo familiar...

Regards,

Jos Okhuijsen
_________________
Jos Okhuijsen +358 40 5007853 PL 118 Ukonj�rventie 141 Ivalo Finland. Europa kit #600 OH-XJO, monowheel, 914 , build start Oct 2003, solo Nov 2003, first flight Jul 2007, 162 hrs, 362 landings, member of the gear up club, crashed, survived.

Europa-List :: Europa-List: Fuel system - More Questions!

Anonymous — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 06:06:23 +0300

Author: Theschultzfamily at co...
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel system - More Questions!
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:06 pm (GMT -5)

Fuel problems are just what I am currently looking at as the possible cause of my intermittent rough running engine. Has anyone taken the time to check the calibration of there sender unit to see how accurate it is? And if so what fuel pressure you are seeing at different manifold pressures?

I don’t trust the accuracy of my gauge and am I the process of running a calibration table to see how it responds over the range of 3 – 15 psi. I hooked up an analog pressure gauge I picked up from AutoZone over the weekend and it gave me a moment of pause. The base reading at idle was about 4.2PSI as I went up to about 31 inches the gauge was seen to slowly climb to about 6 and then was jumping rapidly between 6 and about 10psi. Not sure what if anything the gauge has for damping but it did not look like any. My UMA gauge never shows a pressure fluctuation of more then maybe .1.

I am taking a small air regulator and making a calibration stand to check the analog gauge against the sender unit and a calibrated pressure gauge I have. This should allow me to know voltages and pressure readings and set up the EIS to read correctly over our pressure range.

I want to know what people see from the 914 at say 15, 20. 25, 30 MP. Not differential but actual pressure.

Problem remains intermittent rough running engine starting about 25MP. When is runs rough both carb vacuum readings are in sync, Changing left or right mags has no effect, Left or right tank has no effect, One, both or other fuel pump has no effect. Going to manual on the prop has no effect as does switching the disable on the TCU. Start and re try and still runs rough. Put the plane away and come back two days latter and it works great. Let it sit a day and it might work or it might not….. Oshkosh is calling and I am afraid I’ll be hanging out in my hanger at this rate L

Rich Schultz
N262AE
180 Hours
[quote][b]

Europa-List :: Europa-List: Youtube clip of Jason's engine

paul.the.aviator@gmail.co — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 04:13:49 +0300

Author: paul.the.aviator@gmail.co
Subject: Europa-List: Youtube clip of Jason's engine
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:13 pm (GMT -5)

Hi all,

I suspect that some of you have seen this already, but Jason Parker has a new youtube clip of his most recent 914 turbo Rotax.� The top of the engine is now looking very clean and tidy with� the fuel system plumbed with a distribution manifold, and most of the wiring tucked underneath.

For those who are interested, take a look at www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sdV_aNPiwU

Regards,� Paul

[quote][b]

Europa-List :: RE: Europa-List: Fuel system

Bud Yerly — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 03:13:13 +0300

Author: Bud Yerly
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel system
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:13 pm (GMT -5)

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Tony and others,
The original Rotax installation documentation for the 914 does have a parallel setup, Ref: Rotax installation manual dated 1996 05 10. Europa did not come up with this...

As seems usual for Rotax, they give almost no heads up to why they do things. Refer to Contrails comments http://contrails.free.fr/engine_pierburg_en.php. I have a number of clients flying with the parallel system, without failures. The original documentation shows that a pump failure will not allow fuel to bypass in a parallel setup, but it could. As Rotax said in 1996 "Note: There is no need for a checkvalve for the operation of the two electric fuel pumps since the pump itself won't allow any passage against correct direction of flow. Attention: Employ GENUINE-BOMBARDIER-ROTAX fuel pumps only. Non compliance will release BOMBARDIER -ROTAX from any liability." The new installation manual drops all but the attention step) comment, necessitating the flurry of emails and comments in Contrails. John Hurst in high altitude flying saw the need for the differential to keep the engine from flaming out above 15,000 (if memory serves) when running full boost. Of course turning on the other pump clears the problem. The manual says to keep the fuel pressure below manifold Pressure by 5 psi and fuel pressure min at airbox pressure plus 0.25 bar (3.5 psi ish).

Glad to hear that your having no problem with the sender, as the original UMA differentials did not work with the GRT EIS 4000, which is quite popular in the states. I personally do not use one, but they are handy.

In my opinion, I can't do anything about the fuel pressure differential in flight. The operations manual gives the min and max, but you can't do anything about it. A parallel system adds volume, not pressure in a quick glance. Series can add pressure, but has redundancy problems if a pump clogs. So we go with a series parallel system. My head hurts. I'll go with Piersburg analysis that MRC did in the link above and perhaps add check valves as prescribed, but not change my old system. However, don't get slack as new systems should be plumbed by the book.

On a more lighthearted note:
As for flying, I monitor fuel pressure so as to monitor my filters and delivery system. If I go above 15,000 in full turbo (haven't yet) I'll be sure to turn on the other pump. Rotax says that the fuel pressure of the electric fuel pump must not exceed the manifold pressure by more than 0.35 bar (5psi) and the airbox boost can't exceed the fuel pressure. In that case I'll do the math 34" MP less outside pressure from my standard tables (everyone is not a geek and memorized the tables) of 17" is 13 psi ish differential (34-17=27/2= 13.5 psi) and my fuel pressure is 3 psi because of the lower atmospheric pressure aiding the pump, OH, that's a big gap TURN ON THE OTHER PUMP as the pressure in the airbox is running high and pushing the fuel out of the carbs. (Tongue in cheek of course as the engine would have failed before I got this far.)

Seriously,
Do it my way above and get a head ach or install the differential gauge, do less math. The differential only gives you an idea of your fuel pressure regulator health, and if you can't maintain the min and max, land and investigate. Without the device, monitor your fuel pressure and manifold pressure. If the engine acts up, select reserve (other filter if plumbed that way) and turn on the other pump. Note MP and fuel pressure. If it runs OK, continue and land as soon as practical, if not land as soon as possible and investigate.

Bud Yerly

[quote] -----

Europa-List :: RE: Europa-List: Folding Bicycles

Fred Klein — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 02:24:08 +0300

Author: Fred Klein
Subject: Europa-List: Folding Bicycles
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:24 pm (GMT -5)

--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>

On Jun 30, 2009, at 3:29 PM, Ross Hyndman wrote:

Quote:

For those that are interested in folding bicycles the following two
might cost an arm and a leg but at least they are ridable bikes.
"Friday" USD 1000 and the Moulton GBP900-10,000??.

Friday RULES !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8m8BBgHNcs&feature=PlayList&p=07DCB83DC40A71AF&index=7&playnext=8&playnext_from=PL

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Europa-List :: Europa-List: Folding Bicycles

hyndman1 — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 01:39:19 +0300

Author: hyndman1
Subject: Europa-List: Folding Bicycles
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:39 pm (GMT -5)

--> Europa-List message posted by: Ross Hyndman <hyndman@eol.co.nz>

For those that are interested in folding bicycles the following two
might cost an arm and a leg but at least they are ridable bikes.
"Friday" USD 1000 and the Moulton GBP900-10,000??. The Moulton would
have to be considered the Rolls Royce/(Cadillac) of the 'folders' and
with suspension, would reduce the abuse that your tail end takes.
Ross.

Europa-List :: RE: Europa-List: Fuel system

tonyk — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 00:33:51 +0300

Author: tonyk
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel system
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:33 pm (GMT -5)

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz>

Quote:

Can anyone tell me why rotax swapped from parallel to series

arrangement for

Quote:

the 914 fuel pumps . Also is it mandatory in the UK to have them in

series.

Rotax always had them in series - it was Europa who put them in
parallel. During testing of the UMA differential fuel pressure gauge it
was discovered that the parallel pumps were actually over pressurising
the system so the change was made to swing them back to series.

Incidentally, the UMA fuel pressure gauge mod is very easy to fit and
does work well. For those who are interested, the output of the UMA
differential fuel pressure sensor is 0-5v so should be compatible with
most glass panels capable of accepting a 0-5v input from fuel pressure
sensors.

Tony

Europa-List :: RE: Europa-List: Fuel system

rparigoris — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 00:14:29 +0300

Author: rparigoris
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel system
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:14 pm (GMT -5)

--> Europa-List message posted by: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us

Hi Paul

" Can anyone tell me why rotax swapped from parallel to series arrangement
for the 914 fuel pumps."

To keep differential fuel pressure (pressure to carb float bowls over
airbox pressure) less than I think 5 PSI.

Parallel will blow over that number and has chance of overcoming ability
of needle valve and seat to hold it back.

Also when operating on two pumps in parallel, it is harder on each pump
compared to operating two pumps series with bypass.

Note Europa has modified Rotax recommendation by installing a second
filter, great idea IMHO.

I have details of my system here:
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album231&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Gilles was kind enough to put up fuel pump testing on his website, link
provided in above link.
There is a diagram on Gilles website that is easier to follow than what
Europa has in their FWF manual, but it is the same. I only substituted two
Andair 375 gasculators for supplied filters.

Ron Parigoris

Europa-List :: Europa-List: Fuel system

pstewart — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 23:42:47 +0300

Author: pstewart
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel system
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:42 pm (GMT -5)

--> Europa-List message posted by: Europa <europa@pstewart.f2s.com>

Can anyone tell me why rotax swapped from parallel to series arrangement for
the 914 fuel pumps . Also is it mandatory in the UK to have them in series.

Regards

Paul
G-GIDY

Europa-List :: Europa-List: ASN Aircraft accident 29-JUN-2009 Europa XS C-F

Anonymous — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 23:16:20 +0300

Author: mikenjulie.parkin at b...
Subject: Europa-List: ASN Aircraft accident 29-JUN-2009 Europa XS C-F
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:16 pm (GMT -5)

Details here.

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=66041

regards,

MP
[quote][b]

Europa-List :: Europa-List: C-FOGJ

Anonymous — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 21:59:38 +0300

Author: david.stanbridge at sw...
Subject: Europa-List: C-FOGJ
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:59 pm (GMT -5)

--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Stanbridge (Swift TG)" <david.stanbridge@swifttg.com>

All,

As many of you may be aware there was an fatal accident involving C-FOGJ and
the owner, Janic Volcec.

We are now in contact with the Transportation Safety Board of Canada and are
helping where we can with their enquiries. One of the questions they have
asked is "Have either of you have any contact with the owner of FOGJ?
(Serial number A220) If so, can you recall what was discussed?"

So what I would like to ask is that if someone knows of anything that may
help in this enquiry can you please respond to me so that I can forward it
on to the TSB.

Many thanks,

David Stanbridge

Europa Aircraft

Europa-List :: RE: Europa-List: Mono Wanted

Anonymous — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:50:11 +0300

Author: hansjd at online.no
Subject: Europa-List: Mono Wanted
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:50 am (GMT -5)

Hi Paddy, What's your e.mail adress?

I.m offering mine for sale shortly.

Hans #334, in Norway.

[quote] -----

Europa-List :: Europa-List: Fuel flow on 914

pstewart — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:48:29 +0300

Author: pstewart
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel flow on 914
Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:48 pm (GMT -5)

--> Europa-List message posted by: Europa <europa@pstewart.f2s.com>

Have just rigged up my MAP gauge to monitor the regulator pressure (airbox
side) and pressurised to 40 inches using bicycle pump. When I then run the
fuel pump the regulator makes such alarming grinding noises I quickly turn
the fuel pump off!

Anyone got any thoughts?

Regards

Paul
G-GIDY

Europa-List :: RE: Europa-List: Subaru engine on the monowheel

gcrowder2 — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:18:20 +0300

Author: gcrowder2
Subject: Europa-List: Subaru engine on the monowheel
Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:18 pm (GMT -5)

I have never found handling to be compromised in any way. Handling is delightful. I fly
only off pavement and there has been no groundloops or swerving. I fly at high density
altitudes and with the extra power can easily outclimb or outrun all of the R912 powered
planes in my area. In the photo below, the 912 powered camera plane wanted a climb
compararsion. I went to full throttle and started quickly climbing away. The camera
plane was using a Woodcomp prop.

[quote]From: nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Subaru engine on the monowheel
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:21:39 +0100

--> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" <nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk>

The Subaru was tried in the early days of the Europa. It is too heavy to
make the Europa practical. With two on board and full fuel it as at or
approaching MTOW leaving no margin for baggage. Also as the engine is
heavy, the battery has to be as close to the tail as possible requiring
long battery cables. With the increased pitch inertia the handling is
compromised particularly in pitch. This is particularly relevant for a
monowheel. I know one owner who had his converted to a conventional
tailwheel to try to make the handling more manageable but ended up
selling it having still found it a bit of a handful. The Rotax may be
more expensive to start with but it has still to be bettered by any
other engine.

Nigel Charles

-----

Europa-List :: RE: Europa-List: Folding bikes

mcfadyeanda — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:52:47 +0300

Author: mcfadyeanda
Subject: Europa-List: Folding bikes
Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:52 pm (GMT -5)

Odd really that the wheels are that small when it would appear they need not be. Would have thought that some adjustment of the folding geometry would allow one of two larger wheels to nestle above the other, retaining the folded compactness.

It's all one set of particular compromises!

Duncan McF
do not archive.
[quote] -----

Europa-List :: RE: Europa-List: Subaru engine on the monowheel

Anonymous — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:27:44 +0300

Author: nwcmc at tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Europa-List: Subaru engine on the monowheel
Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:27 pm (GMT -5)

--> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" <nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk>

The Subaru was tried in the early days of the Europa. It is too heavy to
make the Europa practical. With two on board and full fuel it as at or
approaching MTOW leaving no margin for baggage. Also as the engine is
heavy, the battery has to be as close to the tail as possible requiring
long battery cables. With the increased pitch inertia the handling is
compromised particularly in pitch. This is particularly relevant for a
monowheel. I know one owner who had his converted to a conventional
tailwheel to try to make the handling more manageable but ended up
selling it having still found it a bit of a handful. The Rotax may be
more expensive to start with but it has still to be bettered by any
other engine.

Nigel Charles

-----

Europa-List :: RE: Europa-List: Folding bikes

Anonymous — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 21:28:43 +0300

Author: raimo.toivio at rwm.fi
Subject: Europa-List: Folding bikes
Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:28 pm (GMT -5)

Hi

I have a pair of A-bikes (A-bike.co.uk).

They are brilliant (Sir Clive Sinclair�s invention) but the wheels are absolutely too small, max for 5 km trip and that must be good asphalt. It�s ultralight (12,5 lbs = 5,7 kg) and ultracompact (26" x 12" x 6" = 66 x 30 x 15 cm) when folded. They claim it�s world�s smallest and lightest. Very atractive look. Price in England 199�.

Raimo OH-XRT
[quote] -----

Europa-List :: RE: Europa-List: NACA duct and overhear vents

Frans Veldman — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:45:36 +0300

Author: Frans Veldman
Subject: Europa-List: NACA duct and overhear vents
Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:45 pm (GMT -5)

--> Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>

Fred Klein wrote:

Quote:

Did you use an after-market NACA vent? What size SCAT would you
suggest? And how did you enter the plenum between the doors, given the
reinforcement between the doors called for in the plans?

I made a small air door in the ceiling (between the doors), so it is
flush with the roof when closed, and forms a small forward scoop when
opened. It is directly connected to two eye-ball vents in the ceiling panel.

I have not yet been flying, but even with the engine on idle, the vents
already produce lots of air. I suspect that these things produce a real
blaze at cruise speed.

It is a simple solution, and I can't really see the advantage of taking
the air from the rear of the airplane and then transporting it all the
way to the intended place. Also, when taking air from the rear of the
plane, it might be mixed with some exhaust fumes (probably depending on
the amount of prop wash, speed and angle of attack). It is however very
unlikely that the exhaust fumes get to the roof of the airplane in any
normal flight configuration.

Of course if you make an opening in the roof, don't make it too big.
According to the air it produces with an engine on idle, you don't need
much of an opening there. I made a flange around the opening, doing
double duty as reinforcement around the opening, and forming a rain
proof seal when the scoop is closed.

--
Frans Veldman
_________________
Tri-gear, short-wing MG prepared, Rotax 914 intercooler, hi-top half mod 64B, full size flat instrument panel, dual electrical systems, etc.

Europa-List :: RE: Europa-List: NACA duct and overhear vents

Rocketman — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 17:57:44 +0300

Author: Rocketman
Subject: Europa-List: NACA duct and overhear vents
Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:57 am (GMT -5)

--> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff B <topglock@cox.net>

Fred,

Go to http://www.n55xs.com and check in the June 2004 logs. Everything
is there...

Jeff - Baby Blue

Fred Klein wrote:

Quote:

On Jun 28, 2009, at 6:38 PM, jimpuglise@comcast.net
<mailto:jimpuglise@comcast.net> wrote:

Quote:

We ran 2 inch SCAT tubing forward and used 3/4 X 4 blue foam as a
mold to make a 3 sided piece of tubing about 4 feet long that mates to
the SCAT tubing just aft of the "D" brace and runs along the ceiling
to the back of the overhead in the cockpit.

Jim,

What I'm not getting is how your 3/4 x 4 duct gets past the "top hat
stiffeners" between the door openings shown on Fig. 1 on p. 23-1 of the
build manual. Simply penetrating the stiffeners doesn't seem right as
their purpose appears to be to provide structural continuity.

Fred

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_________________
Jeff Behrnes
N55XS - Tri-Gear
Flying and loving it...

Europa-List :: RE: Europa-List: NACA duct and overhear vents

Jim Puglise — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 17:21:14 +0300

Author: Jim Puglise
Subject: Europa-List: NACA duct and overhear vents
Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:21 am (GMT -5)

-----
_________________
Jim Puglise
K9CQ
A-283
Punta Gorda, FL

Europa-List :: Europa-List: Why would ailerons drop when pulling Gs?

rparigoris — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 07:24:26 +0300

Author: rparigoris
Subject: Europa-List: Why would ailerons drop when pulling Gs?
Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:24 pm (GMT -5)

A while back I read that someone was having problems with a wing dropping during stall, but only when pulling more than 1 G.After studying problem he determined than when pulling gs that the ailerons dropped a bit (washin).Cure was found by reflexing ailerons a bit.Was at hangar today and can't quite figure out why the ailerons would drop when pulling gs??Either the wing needs to grow in length or the aileron pushrod needs to shrink.Best I can figure is perhaps when pulling gs the aileron plate at wing root moves away from plate in fuse??Perhaps it was a Classic that identified this, I have an XS.Can anyone explain why when pulling posative gs the ailerons would washin?Thx.Ron Parigoris [quote][b]

Europa-List :: RE: Europa-List: Panel Guide

Fred Klein — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 06:30:52 +0300

Author: Fred Klein
Subject: Europa-List: Panel Guide
Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:30 pm (GMT -5)

--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>

On Jun 28, 2009, at 7:31 PM, JR Gowing wrote:

Quote:

On 16th May in a note to Ron P. you suggested making splash moulds
between fuselage and panel to align and support the inst. panel when
mounting it in the fuselage -

This sounds like a great idea, angles or what; would you like to
provide a few more details or perhaps a photo please?

Well Bob, if truth be told, when I reached that stage, I didn't find
any particular difficulty aligning the panel moulding w/ its mounting
holes in the firewall, so I did not follow my suggestion to Ron.

My panel molding is shock mounted to the firewall using those nice
little isolation mounts w/ threaded studs on both ends thus allowing
the mounts to be permanently bolted to the added flange on the panel
molding. Installing the panel is then just a matter of aligning the
studs w/ the holes in the firewall.

I'm doing my panel w/ sub-panels (as I suspect most builders are
doing) including wire connectors so that, I can pull say the
navigation/comm sub-panel or the flight instrument sub-panel...when
doing so, the openings allow access to the aft face of the firewall if
needed.

Along the edge of the vertical face of the purse shelf, I used 3 shock
mounts w/ a stud in one end (bolting permanently to the firewall) and
a threaded hole on the other end to receive a machine screw and washer.

Fred

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